You are hereCharismatic Preterism?
Charismatic Preterism?
by Benjamin Davis
I recently received a phone call from a gentleman who wanted to talk about “charismatic preterism.” It’s not every day that these two words are used together in a complimentary way, but this conversation was from someone who was overjoyed to find a church that was able to mix the doctrines of the Holy Spirit and His giftings along with preterism. Since we have been sending out our Hidden Manna magazine, we have had several inquiries from people interested to know how a church could hold to the preterist (past-fulfillment) eschatology and still practice and believe in the gifts of the Spirit. Typically, these two theologies have been like oil and water—they haven’t mixed.
Perhaps a little history will help in this matter. In the early part of the twentieth century, the Holy Spirit began to restore to the church the understanding of who He is and the way He can work supernaturally through His people. This was a much needed reformation, for the church that does not allow the Holy Spirit to move freely and sovereignly in their experience will eventually come to have dead orthodoxy in the way they practice their faith. The people whom the Holy Spirit was reforming at the time came to be known as the Pentecostals. Later in the century, there was the rise of what was called the Charismatic movement. These movements were characterized by people receiving a fuller experience with the Holy Spirit, often accompanied by supernatural happenings such as speaking in tongues, divine healings, words of prophecy, etc. (1 Cor. 12:1-11).
Those who rejected the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements often did so on dispensational grounds. That is, they believed that the gifts of the Holy Spirit passed away in the first century, during that dispensation of time after all the original apostles were gone. Pentecostals and charismatics have battled this dispensational theology, saying that the gifts were not just for an early dispensation in the church, but for us today. However, having their own form of dispensational theology, many of these same Pentecostals and charismatics reject preterism (covenant theology) and the understanding that we are living in the kingdom of God today. They say that the kingdom is for a future dispensation and not now. Their current form of dispensationalism places us in a parenthetical church age that will end when Jesus returns and brings in the kingdom.
Preterists espouse more of a covenantal view. Rather than seeing the history of God’s people as a series of dispensations, they understand that God’s people have always lived under a series of God-initiated covenants. God made covenants with Adam (Gen. 3:15), Noah (Gen. 9:9-17), Abraham (Gen. 12:1-3, 15:1-21, 17:1-27, 22:16-18), Moses (Ex. 19:5-6, 24:8), David (2 Sam. 7:1-17), and finally Jesus (Matt. 26:28; Heb. 8:6-13, 12:24). The covenant with Jesus is an everlasting covenant (Heb. 13:20). Preterists believe that we now live in the everlasting kingdom of Christ. However, even with a covenant theology, many preterists are rejecting the gifts of the Spirit today on dispensational grounds, saying that the gifts were only for the dispensation of the first century.
I believe the Lord desires all of His people to come to maturity in their understanding and experience in Christ. However, pride often stands in the way. Jesus had harsh criticism for those who let pride stand in the way of the true knowledge of Christ:
Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered (Luke 11:52).
The key to true spiritual knowledge is humility and openness before the Lord. Jesus asked the Jews of His day to think outside the box about how they viewed the Messiah. He is still calling His people to think outside the box.
Pentecostals and charismatics should be the first to open up to covenant eschatology (preterism) and the fact that we are living in the kingdom today. We’ve been empowered by the Holy Spirit to experience His supernatural transformation of people’s lives, cultures, and nations. The gifts of the Spirit (tongues, prophesy, divine healing, etc.) have been given to us for practical victorious living in Christ.
Preterists need to open up to the Holy Spirit’s supernatural working and His giftings for people today in order to practically live out the kingdom we preach and change our culture. Only by the supernatural direction and experience of God’s Holy Spirit can we fulfill our calling in this “world without end” (Eph 3:21).
The Holy Spirit has been given to us to guide us into all truth (John 16:13). Jesus knew of the problems we would face, so He gave us an eternal answer:
And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever… (John 14:16)
As we will yield ourselves to the Lord, He will deepen our experience in the Holy Spirit and our understanding of what has been accomplished for us in the coming and return (parousia) of Christ.
Hello. I hope I can find people from both pro and con backgrounds to deal with this issue.
I have a question for the Charismatic Preterists, a sincere question. When does tongues cease along with the other gifts?
1 Corinthians 13:8-10 Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.
When will these gifts be done away?
Grace,
Mike
Yeah,
I can see why some Preterists would logically want to impose an anti-Charismatic sentiment onto the Preterist Position, especially if their former Denomination was already anti-Charismatic.
1 Corinthians 13 itself seems to pose the question you ask and give the answer, too.
So, "where there is knowledge, it will be done away with".
Of course, Knowledge is still here, so it follows that the Charismata has not yet been abolished within earthly humanity at this time.
I suppose your next argument against the Charismata from the text might ask about the nature of what the "Perfect" and "Partial" refer to. Those would be a better preteristic questions, in my opinion.
Personally, I don't speak in tongues, just with one.
I see no biblical reason to suggest that 1st Century charismatic gifts must necessarily be extinguished today. But, I do think they are undoubtedly quite rare now, probably due to the poor quality of a modern, state-incorporated form of Ecclesia that is so pervasive and which keeps the minds of many in such spiritual darkness.
Peace to you all,
C. Livingstone
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Submitted by ZionsChild on Sun, 06/20/2010 - 16:17.
Hello. I hope I can find people from both pro and con backgrounds to deal with this issue.
I have a question for the Charismatic Preterists, a sincere question. When does tongues cease along with the other gifts?
1 Corinthians 13:8-10 Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.
When will these gifts be done away?
Grace,
Mike
Sure, Plymouthrock,
You don't have to respectfully disagree with me.
You can simply disagree with, as I do with you. Like when you state: "Charismata (knowledge, tongues, prophecy) continues in the believer as long as that believer believes they are necessary."
That's an argument for Wish Fulfillment, which doesn't follow here.
And your line of reasoning about Paul, while worth considering, ("YET WHEN I BECAME A MAN (MATURE, PERFECT), I HAVE DISCARDED THAT WHICH IS A MINOR'S."), Paul is not suggesting that he ever stopped demonstrating Charismata due to reaching a level of Maturity late in his life.
If that were so, it would impugn his former apostolic authority and work, logically speaking. At least, to me, it would.
Peace be with you,
C. Livingstone
Well,
It's nice to hear that some here do enjoy my input, Plymouthrock. I like you guys/gals, too.
Even though you've inferred it from various Bible passages, I still see no real evidence from the Bible text that Charismata was intended to go hand-in-hand, so-to-speak, with Immaturity, and then cease when personal Maturity is reached on Earth.
I mean, that's pretty much the same kind of non-biblical inferring that the Charismata "ceased" and the Canon of New Testament scripture is necessarily "closed" by virtue of the Bible being supposedly completed or that the Apostles are all dead.
All of this stuff we're arguing is mere speculation.
I conclude that the Bible itself doesn't really address it.
And, I think many Preterists are often a little too quick to suggest that things like this (pre-70 AD stuff) are explained away with the fact that the NT was written pre-70 AD and that the Parousia was a magical transformation impressed upon everything after 70 AD, even though the Bible as it is currently, doesn't/can't describe post-70 AD realities, after-the-fact, or compare them with the fully-operating New Covenant period between the Christian Day of Pentecost and 70 AD..
But, I'm sure it follows for most Preterists that the "Perfect" refers to the Parousia.
And there might be some Local Application there. I just don't see that much Universal Application for covenantal or mystical changes, beyond Jerusalem's destruction and the Temple System being annihilated. I see little difference, from afar, between the the pre-70 AD reality (33-70 AD) and the post-70 AD reality.
And that's why I don't rule-out Charismata or even new Canonical Scripture or Epistles on-par with that which may have written by the 13 Apostles (I'm including Matthias and Paul, not Judas).
Peace be with you,
C. Livingstone
Chris,
I must respectfully disagree with what you have written. Charismata (knowledge, tongues, prophecy) continues in the believer as long as that believer believes they are necessary.
1 Corinthians 13:8 ff (CLV)
"Love is never lapsing; yet whether prophecies, they will be discarded, or languages, they will cease, or knowledge, it will be discarded. For out of an installment are we knowing, and out of an installment are we prophesying.
NOW WHENEVER MATURITY MAY BE COMING, THEN THAT WHICH IS OUT OF AN INSTALLMENT SHALL BE DISCARDED. WHEN I WAS A MINOR, I SPOKE AS A MINOR, I WAS DISPOSED AS A MINOR, I TOOK ACCOUNT OF THINGS AS A MINOR. YET WHEN I BECAME A MAN (MATURE, PERFECT), I HAVE DISCARDED THAT WHICH IS A MINOR'S."
As a believer matures, he or she no longer desires installment gifts but maturity instead, which in essence is love. Notice Paul said when he was a minor he took account of things as a minor does. Minors focus on externalities, phenomena, signs, wonders, etc - and we all know how the Master felt about those seeking signs. Maturity brings a focus on transcending the need for externalities and brings a focus on love - the subject of the chapter.
So, to sum up. Charismata does not end when knowledge does. Knowledge, the type of which Paul writes, is an installment phenomenon of the same type as prophecy and tongues. This is why they are listed together. The sign gifts continue as long as there are "minors" in Christ who are disposed to take account of them and insist upon their existence and utility.
Also notice, who is doing the discarding. When maturity comes, the believer himself discards those things which are no longer expedient. "I have discarded..."
"...and I am showing you a path, suited to transcendence (i.e. love)" I Cor. 12:31.
plymouthrock!
Thank you Chris. I am glad that we can dispense with formalities. Yet I used the term "respect" because I have always enjoyed
your perspective on things here.
On to wish fulfillment. Experiences and conditions in our lives are a product of what we think and believe. “According to your faith be it unto you” “As a man thinketh in his heart so is he” “What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.” “What a man sows that also shall he reap.” What many do not realize is that when Christ spoke of “giving” and “receiving” He was not merely discussing money but instead was speaking about how life works; what we give we receive. Thus, our experience is entirely based upon our worldview and what one gives and what one believes. So, this is certainly not a case of wish fulfillment but a lesson in reality. A pacifier is of real utility to the babe who requires it, his disposition makes it so.
Paul understood this. Paul understood that as one grew from a “babe” in Christ to maturity, his or her expressions of Christ would move from minor, juvenile expressions to major, mature expressions. Immaturity is only conquered by maturity. And, as with everything else, its arrival is entirely up to the individual. Notice Paul, “And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly (immature).” The babes in Corinth were not yet mature enough to hear what he really wished to tell them; "yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature.”
Paul is trying to spur the immature Corinthians on to maturity and away from the “jealousies and quarreling” attendant with focus on juvenile expressions. Paul was showing them the superior way. “Yet be zealous for the greater graces. And still I am showing you a path, suited to transcendence.” He compared juvenile expressions (which were the cause of the controversies amongst the babes) with the mature, transcendent expression (love), which offends none.
Paul himself remarked that love was truly the only thing worth pursuing. “The greatest of these is love. Be pursuing love.” Paul also noted that he would rather speak five intelligible words than “ten thousand words in a language” and that without love such expressions are as a “sounding gong or tinkling cymbal.”
So whether Paul continued to display charismata throughout his career is only really an indicator of whether he was in the presence of the immature who cared about such things (“milk”) or whether he was in the company of the mature, the perfect (“meat” “wisdom” “love”) who only sought to love their neighbor as themselves. Because Paul operated in love he became “all things to all people” so as not to be a “stumbling block” to them. But as to Paul’s stated goals, he sought to be mature, perfect, an expert in love, not in charismata.
Paul apparently achieved his goal, as he “finished the race.” Which means, by implication, that he “discarded” that which belonged to “minors" along the way. “Now whenever maturity may be coming, that which is out of an installment shall be discarded.” “Brethren, do not become little children in disposition…in disposition become mature.” “Be pursuing love.”
Charismata are the inchoate, fragmentary expressions (“in part”) commensurate with youth. Love is the expression of the mature because it “seeks not its own” and does not “puff up”, things which cannot be said of the charismata, as First Corinthians proves to us.
plymouthrock!
After doing some research through preteristvision.com and its links, and on other formats I have to say...Charismatic-Preterism makes sense.
Hebrews 2:4-5 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
Hebrews 6:4-5 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Did anyone else here notice that phrase "POWERS of the world to come" right in context with the Holy Spirit and its acts?
The apostles were confirmed with signs and wonders...and the context is "the world to come" Well,we are IN that world. Makes sense that the nature of the world matches in character with what is tied into it, "signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost".
Anyway, the above listed website with its respective links digs into this a bit more.
Thanks to all!
Grace and Peace,
Mike
PS. Although I do have to agree with the cessationalists on one thing...The "miracles" that we see today are largely FAKE! Some genuine, though.
"Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
Where there is no love there is no power. We see fake miracles because of the absence of real power. The real power is absent because of our refusal to love. When the world is filled with mature Christians who are full of love then we will see real power.
We are worried about the wrong thing. We are worried about whether the gifts are still available instead of fulfilling Christ's only commandment. Christ never spoke about gifts. He only spoke of love and how we would be known as his disciples by loving one another.
plymouthrock!
"Even though you've inferred it from various Bible passages, I still see no evidence..."
"I conclude"
"I'm sure it follows for most..."
"I just don't see that much..."
"I see little difference..."
"I think..."
You've asserted much. Do you have any scriptures? If I've inferred from Scripture it is because possibly the writer implied. Writers imply hearers (readers) infer. I've made reasonable arguments from the material at hand. If I've inferred from Scripture, fairness dictates that these "false" inferences be undone with Scripture. Yes?
plymouthrock!
No,
You were making an argument from biblical silence, and using scripture to garnish and infer your argument, in my opinion.
As I said before, the Bible doesn't address this in a clear way.
Were just speculating.
Neither of us can show biblical texts for or against the Charismata ceasing with personal Maturity, unless we infer it from texts that are not clear on this point.
Or, I suppose one text that might refute your position is:
"For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable." Romans 11:29
So, if Paul had either of those, he could not get rid of them even with some mysterious level of achieved Maturity.
Paul says that himself.
And, like I also said, most Preterists would undoubtedly equate the "Perfect" with the Parousia, not Personal Maturity, which you're suggesting that Apostle Paul did not possess for most of his life.
Peace be with you,
C. Livingstone
http://www.preteristvision.org/commentaries/1cor13.html
You can cut and paste the above link. The website listed above goes through 1 Cor. 13 in the greek and shows that the gifts are never told to cease, but that the believers should come to maturity. They were "in part" and "lacking" in maturity...they had the gifts, but not the maturity to go with them. That is why Paul teaches to go from a child into manhood. They should gain maturity in these gifts and have a fulfilled service to God. That's it in a nutshell, the link has the article on it.
I am a Charismatic/Pentecostal Preterist. The circle of fellowship that I am in (though not exclusively so)teaches preterism. My question to those who think that CP conflicts, how can you stop believing in the *manifestation of the Spirit*? "Manifestation of the Spirit" one may ask? Yes In 1 Cor 12 the gifts are the *manifesting of the Spirit of God*:
1 Cor 12:7
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to everyone to profit all.
Where is the profit in taking the gifts out? Where is the profit in removing the Spirit's manifesting Himself? OR as some have said "He still manifests but not in the gifts" then I ask why don't any of the NT writers mention this tremendous transition or change? Where is the reality in that?
Just for your consideration.
Jmloy
Well even in the Preterist boat we have a few holes to plug! But how does one argue agianst an 'I know it's true because I experienced it' mentality? If tongues are for today then why not healing via a man, and why not then label him an apostle and then why not have a word from the Lord . Oh...wait, I forgot about Benny Hinn and Ken Copeland. Ladies and gentlemen there are apostles and prophets amongst us! Let's all just throw our heads back and let the heavenly language flow. But first lets throw reason out the window.
...onward TowardsTruthandReformation!
Hmm ... Babies and Bathwater, There are a great many Charismatic Preterists. In fact we may soon be the largest demographic in the Preterist fold. Most of us are SICK TO THE BACK TEETH of the foolish carry on by the "big names". We are however, not alone in being embarrased by those who proport to speak for us.
Try this definition for possible definition of Charismatic Preterism (CP):
CP teaches that Jesus has equipped his people with the needed gifts, both natural and supernatural, to proclaim and demonstrate the power of His Kingdom. We believe that God receives no Glory from any manifestation of the curse, whether it be sin itself or its many fruits such as sickness, depression or addiction. We believe that the eternal power of God is freely available to liberate those who are bound. We believe that God is willing and desirous to manifest His great love in a miraculous way through His people.
Those who are prepared to toss out the "bathwater" of Charismatic foolishness have many Charismatics as their willing allies. They must however remember that the "baby" that remains in the tub is their brother in the Lord.
Albert J Persohn
Very well said, Albert. I think there is an unfortunate perspective that by opening up to the Spirit, we will lose control of our physical and mental faculties and will have to wear Depends because of it. I understand this concern.
The first post alluded to a progression of foolishness. I just want to say that I have a solid sense of reason, and am very careful when it comes to discerning spirits. The Holy Spirit has no desire to take that away from us.
I have never once spoken in tongues without choosing to. Yet when I do, I sense the Holy Spirit leading me in what to say. I feel His approval of it, and that He understands what I am saying -- as sometimes I just don't know what to pray.
Jesus assures us that God will not give us a snake if we ask for a fish. Therefore we can go before Him boldly, and ask Him to baptize us into the Holy Spirit. There is no shame in that, and the worst thing that can happen is for nothing to happen.
It's a gift, not a law. It's totally scriptural, and He wants you to have it. :-)
In my right mind,
-Dana
LegacyHDV.com
Albert,
I understand your position, but I have a big problem with holding a preterist position and still being a charismatic. I have a couple of questions for you:
- Why is it that we don't see new books added to the Bible continually since charismata hasn't ceased?
- Why don't we see new prophets appearing all the time like in the Old Testament?
Dear AJP:
Thanks for the response! Are you a Preterist or a Partial-Preterist? Preterism by definition is that 'all' prophecy has been fulfilled. Partial-Preterism is a misnomer(sp?). I am a former Charismatic. Now I (we) have three choices:
1. I was(am)baptised w/ the Holy Spirit and endowed with the 'gifts' of the Spirit but am 'in denial'. or 2. I was never baptised w/ the Holy Spirit and am still weighed and found wanting. or 3. The Holy Spirit does not any longer confere the gifts upon men...today. If the gifts are for today and one is consistent with this theology, one is forced into the position of re-opening the canon of Scripture. The baby is precious and beautiful but the water is 'unScriptural'. It is possible to keep the baby and throw out the water. Remember when you thought other doctrines you once held were correct and then that changed. Well, this is an area that needs reforming in the body of Christ. Read items by Don Matzat, G. Gardinier(sp?) and others who were once 'bigtime' charismatics and came to realize that they had bought into an emotional lie. Scripture opened their eyes, argument only served to direct them to the Word. Sincerely, RH
...onward TowardsTruthandReformation!
Thank You for your comments, I am not ducking this one. It is all go here and responding to questions regarding Charismatic Preterism requires a wide awake mind! I will post a reply ASAP.
AJP,
I look forward to your posting. Take youd time,
my plate is full! I've never talked w/ CP's so I really want to understand your position. Lord Bless,
RH
...onward TowardsTruthandReformation!